Would you buy a plug in electric car?
- Amor Vincit Omnia
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Ah, thank you for the explanation. That puts the picture into context.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
My car for just now, hoping for an EQC soon though to save on company car tax.Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 am Ah, thank you for the explanation. That puts the picture into context.
Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
So....just to pull this back to the question posed in the title:
The EQC is essentially a GLC with the internal combustion bits removed and some electric motors + battery put in their place combined with a cosmetic makeover.
The EQC starts at £65k and the GLC starts at £40k
£25k buys enough diesel to cover approx 176,000 miles in a GLC (fuel at 125p/l running at 40 mpg - MBZ lower end figure for GLC 220d) and batteries currently have an expected life span of around 8 years.
So you would need to do 22000 miles a year for 8 years at the end of which the GLC will be worth a couple or three thousand pounds and the EQC will be worth...? Who knows with dead batteries.
And we haven't even factored in the charging costs, but let's generously assume these are equalled out by RFL and presumably higher service costs for the diesel ( although I wouldn't bank on the latter).
If you work on a more typical mileage of 10-12k per year then the diesel is massively more cost effective and it will be worth even more with a lower mileage.
It still seems that the answer to the question is 'no' unless you fall into a very narrow band of users, which includes those not actually spending their own money on the product!
For the life of me I cannot understand why battery based cars are being pushed ahead of hydrogen fuel cell based technology. If I were a cynic I would suspect that in the future, once we have all gone battery electric, the ongoing production of batteries will be declared an environmental disaster and we will all have to change again....to fuel cell vehicles by any chance!?
This is the kind of incremental steering / manipulation of the market that keeps the economic wheels turning so I guess there are no surprises. Except for why the environmental lobby are not alive to how damaging the lithium extraction is, and how much worse it will get if the EV industry continues to favour batteries ahead of fuel cells.
Cheers,
Paul
The EQC is essentially a GLC with the internal combustion bits removed and some electric motors + battery put in their place combined with a cosmetic makeover.
The EQC starts at £65k and the GLC starts at £40k
£25k buys enough diesel to cover approx 176,000 miles in a GLC (fuel at 125p/l running at 40 mpg - MBZ lower end figure for GLC 220d) and batteries currently have an expected life span of around 8 years.
So you would need to do 22000 miles a year for 8 years at the end of which the GLC will be worth a couple or three thousand pounds and the EQC will be worth...? Who knows with dead batteries.
And we haven't even factored in the charging costs, but let's generously assume these are equalled out by RFL and presumably higher service costs for the diesel ( although I wouldn't bank on the latter).
If you work on a more typical mileage of 10-12k per year then the diesel is massively more cost effective and it will be worth even more with a lower mileage.
It still seems that the answer to the question is 'no' unless you fall into a very narrow band of users, which includes those not actually spending their own money on the product!
For the life of me I cannot understand why battery based cars are being pushed ahead of hydrogen fuel cell based technology. If I were a cynic I would suspect that in the future, once we have all gone battery electric, the ongoing production of batteries will be declared an environmental disaster and we will all have to change again....to fuel cell vehicles by any chance!?
This is the kind of incremental steering / manipulation of the market that keeps the economic wheels turning so I guess there are no surprises. Except for why the environmental lobby are not alive to how damaging the lithium extraction is, and how much worse it will get if the EV industry continues to favour batteries ahead of fuel cells.
Cheers,
Paul
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- Thegreyman
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Sorry, not sure why but that isn't the most attractive Merc I've ever seen, the front end/grille are meh, in profile it looks quite similar to a Macan.Mizunomorelia wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:23 amThat was at training, I work for Mercedes-Benz. Our 1st fully electric car.
Referencing @pauljs points, I too have been fairly cynical of electric cars. What I noticed recently though is that we now have the Tesla Model 3 on our company car list and I could get one with an alleged range of 322 miles (and something like 0-60 in 3 seconds ). What's even more interesting is that from April 2020 the taxable benefit in kind is nil for an all electric car so I could essentially get one of these and pay no tax. That does make them quite appealing and a few people have now ordered these for their company car. I currently just arrange my own car and will probably just stick with my 3 series but food for thought.
I don't do that many miles and with a home charger, the range would make the car fairly easy to live with.
I still have the same reservations about electric cars become the majority vehicle on the roads (charging infrastructure, scarcity of natural resources to produce the batteries etc).
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
I think the opportunity for decentralised fuel (electricity - generate, store and consume anywhere) versus manufactured and controlled distribution (diesel, lpg, hydrogen etc) is the future. With any luck developers will start installing three phase power to new builds soon too. Solar PV and home energy storage supplementing the grid, then charge at home/the shops/work for 300+ miles range.
Yes there are questions around the lithium and cobalt (also used for oil refining), but those are short term problems already being worked on and solved. Battery packs have ever longer usable charge/discharge periods (thanks to exponential improvements to thermal management and voltage control technology) and are largely being repurposed for energy storage once they reach a lower energy density than desirable in a car.
This is impressive https://electrek.co/2019/11/30/tesla-mo ... illion-km/
Yes there are questions around the lithium and cobalt (also used for oil refining), but those are short term problems already being worked on and solved. Battery packs have ever longer usable charge/discharge periods (thanks to exponential improvements to thermal management and voltage control technology) and are largely being repurposed for energy storage once they reach a lower energy density than desirable in a car.
This is impressive https://electrek.co/2019/11/30/tesla-mo ... illion-km/
Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
I have similar reservations to you but I’ve taken the plunge. The tax breaks make the case for an all-electric pretty compelling. To mitigate against range anxiety I’ve ordered a Tesla 3 long range to arrive in April. Range is supposedly around 350 miles, and it is still stupidly quick 0-60 in 4.4 secs.Thegreyman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:14 pmSorry, not sure why but that isn't the most attractive Merc I've ever seen, the front end/grille are meh, in profile it looks quite similar to a Macan.Mizunomorelia wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:23 amThat was at training, I work for Mercedes-Benz. Our 1st fully electric car.
Referencing @pauljs points, I too have been fairly cynical of electric cars. What I noticed recently though is that we now have the Tesla Model 3 on our company car list and I could get one with an alleged range of 322 miles (and something like 0-60 in 3 seconds ). What's even more interesting is that from April 2020 the taxable benefit in kind is nil for an all electric car so I could essentially get one of these and pay no tax. That does make them quite appealing and a few people have now ordered these for their company car. I currently just arrange my own car and will probably just stick with my 3 series but food for thought.
I don't do that many miles and with a home charger, the range would make the car fairly easy to live with.
I still have the same reservations about electric cars become the majority vehicle on the roads (charging infrastructure, scarcity of natural resources to produce the batteries etc).
Hope it lives up to expectations!
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Congratulations, will be interesting to hear your thoughts. A guy who works beside me has gone for the long range Performance version which is quoted as 3.2 seconds 0-60 although I think 4.4 is way more than fast enough!Ttf23 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:11 pm
I have similar reservations to you but I’ve taken the plunge. The tax breaks make the case for an all-electric pretty compelling. To mitigate against range anxiety I’ve ordered a Tesla 3 long range to arrive in April. Range is supposedly around 350 miles, and it is still stupidly quick 0-60 in 4.4 secs.
Hope it lives up to expectations!
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Considering my previous fastest cars have all been around 8 secs, I would agree!Thegreyman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:00 pmCongratulations, will be interesting to hear your thoughts. A guy who works beside me has gone for the long range Performance version which is quoted as 3.2 seconds 0-60 although I think 4.4 is way more than fast enough!Ttf23 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:11 pm
I have similar reservations to you but I’ve taken the plunge. The tax breaks make the case for an all-electric pretty compelling. To mitigate against range anxiety I’ve ordered a Tesla 3 long range to arrive in April. Range is supposedly around 350 miles, and it is still stupidly quick 0-60 in 4.4 secs.
Hope it lives up to expectations!
Will definitely be a change in mindset to charging every night, and not having to visit a petrol station ever again. What I’m most looking forward to is on a winter’s morning turning the heating with a flick on the app on from the comfort of my kitchen so that it is defrosted and toasty rather than having to scrape ice off the windscreen.
Will report back in a few months.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Unless I missed something, it's interesting to note that environmental issues don't feature in the decision making / consideration process - it is more about cost and performance. I guess that is just the reality of the drivers ( no pun intended ) that are needed to move people over to what is allegedly a more environmentally friendly option.
With regard to the installation of three phase supplies in domestic dwellings, I think that this is very unlikely to occur. Having been involved in the house building business, it is the case that a developer must pay for any upgrade required to the electricity network in order to serve the properties being built. This already represents a considerable cost for standard single phase supplies, so three phase across the board would be prohibitive and not a cost that could easily be passed on to the end user......unless it is made a requirement under planning or Building Control requirements and it becomes universal.
To give a similar example, a few years back were were equipping every new house with solar panels and air source heat pumps instead of boilers because the planners were mandating it under what was known as Code 4 Sustainability. Then the Government axed this policy and, not only did we stop installing panels and ASHPs in future properties, we also went back in for revised planning to remove the requirement from developments that already had approval but that we had not yet commenced. Unfortunately this is just business, as the renewable technology added around £5K to the build cost that we could not recover and, TBH, our buyers didn't give hoot whether they had a boiler or an ASHP. They were more interested in the spec of the kitchen!
Getting back to EVs, it is very hard to see how the charging infrastructure can be incorporated into future high density developments or retro fitted to existing and, afterall, its in these kinds of urban areas where an EV is most appropriate.
I have room to charge up a dozen EVs but live in the middle of nowhere and need a 4 x 4 that tows 3.5 tonnes so an EV is useless to me!
Therein, I think, lies the dilemma.
Cheers,
Paul
With regard to the installation of three phase supplies in domestic dwellings, I think that this is very unlikely to occur. Having been involved in the house building business, it is the case that a developer must pay for any upgrade required to the electricity network in order to serve the properties being built. This already represents a considerable cost for standard single phase supplies, so three phase across the board would be prohibitive and not a cost that could easily be passed on to the end user......unless it is made a requirement under planning or Building Control requirements and it becomes universal.
To give a similar example, a few years back were were equipping every new house with solar panels and air source heat pumps instead of boilers because the planners were mandating it under what was known as Code 4 Sustainability. Then the Government axed this policy and, not only did we stop installing panels and ASHPs in future properties, we also went back in for revised planning to remove the requirement from developments that already had approval but that we had not yet commenced. Unfortunately this is just business, as the renewable technology added around £5K to the build cost that we could not recover and, TBH, our buyers didn't give hoot whether they had a boiler or an ASHP. They were more interested in the spec of the kitchen!
Getting back to EVs, it is very hard to see how the charging infrastructure can be incorporated into future high density developments or retro fitted to existing and, afterall, its in these kinds of urban areas where an EV is most appropriate.
I have room to charge up a dozen EVs but live in the middle of nowhere and need a 4 x 4 that tows 3.5 tonnes so an EV is useless to me!
Therein, I think, lies the dilemma.
Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
I never answered this....I think the REX s the actual huge lost opportunity for electric cars (both for manufacturers and consumers alike)Bahnstormer_vRS wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:39 pm @davecUK - would you say that an early i3 with RX is a bit like, to drive, having a regular hybrid car?
Mind you, I'm not so keen on the gawky, tall body and skinny tyres.
Guy
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My thinking here...the i3 has a lightweight carbon body to allow a very small battery to carry it a long way...ridiculous, make a light aluminium recyclable body.
The Rex engine was the right solution for all manufacturers until better batteries came along.
1. As long as i can home charge, the charging infrastructure doesn't matter. So can be built better over a longer period
2. I only need a small battery, e.g. 150 ml range for 99% of my journeys
3. The range allows for unlimited travel
4. If I can't find a charger I don't care
5. On longer journeys I can save hours not charging up, looking for chargers, waiting for chargers, finding faulty chargers (just saving 1 charge each way can save 2 hours).
6. It's cheaper or the same price to run on petrol than at rip of charging prices
7. Dealers can still rip us off for ice engine servicing, rather than the same rip off for nothing on electric car servicing.
Yet REX style engines are the first things to disappear??
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Would you buy a plug in electric car?
You cynic Paul... Sadly, I agree with you.PaulJS wrote: <snipped some interesting material for the sake of brevity>
For the life of me I cannot understand why battery based cars are being pushed ahead of hydrogen fuel cell based technology. If I were a cynic I would suspect that in the future, once we have all gone battery electric, the ongoing production of batteries will be declared an environmental disaster and we will all have to change again....to fuel cell vehicles by any chance!?
This is the kind of incremental steering / manipulation of the market that keeps the economic wheels turning so I guess there are no surprises. Except for why the environmental lobby are not alive to how damaging the lithium extraction is, and how much worse it will get if the EV industry continues to favour batteries ahead of fuel cells.
Cheers,
Paul
In Australia, distance and population are a barrier to the takeup of EV. Hydrogen fuel cells however would work a treat here... but are they even mentioned? No...
There is also the issue of cobalt mining... Cobalt is a required ingredient of lithium ion cells and the majority of it is mined in the Congo in appalling conditions, frequently by children.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
I’m still in the bunch that wants more mileage than electric cars offer. I do think electric cars are cool. I wish Tesla would make a way to generate some charge and added range. I guess hybrids are for me.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Before we start, I know I'm open to a bit of stick here due to some of my previous comments!!
Well, as I now no longer have to drive more than a couple of hundred miles a week and my furthest regular journey is only 60 miles or so I've done a full 'about turn' and took the plunge! I never thought I ever would but the government just made it too tempting with the BIK that I decided to put one against my company for myself. I know I've slated them but, at the end of the day, money talks and the financial benefits were just too much for me not to give it a try. I drew the line at having a Tesla though - too much like a computer than a car for me. Jag wouldn't do a decent enough deal on the iPace so I went for an Audi E-Tron. It was stuck in port in Germany since mid March when everything closed down (should have been mid April delivery), but it is due at the dealer on Wednesday so I should have it within a week or so. Time will tell whether the decision to move into 'soulless' motoring is a good one or not but at least I have the MX5 to put a smile on my face when I need it. To balance things out a little though, our lasses Yaris Hybrid is going and being replaced with a petrol Audi A1. I must admit that I do keep thinking 'have I done the right thing', hopefully I have.
Well, as I now no longer have to drive more than a couple of hundred miles a week and my furthest regular journey is only 60 miles or so I've done a full 'about turn' and took the plunge! I never thought I ever would but the government just made it too tempting with the BIK that I decided to put one against my company for myself. I know I've slated them but, at the end of the day, money talks and the financial benefits were just too much for me not to give it a try. I drew the line at having a Tesla though - too much like a computer than a car for me. Jag wouldn't do a decent enough deal on the iPace so I went for an Audi E-Tron. It was stuck in port in Germany since mid March when everything closed down (should have been mid April delivery), but it is due at the dealer on Wednesday so I should have it within a week or so. Time will tell whether the decision to move into 'soulless' motoring is a good one or not but at least I have the MX5 to put a smile on my face when I need it. To balance things out a little though, our lasses Yaris Hybrid is going and being replaced with a petrol Audi A1. I must admit that I do keep thinking 'have I done the right thing', hopefully I have.
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Well Chris, if it makes sense and you’ve still got your plaything – why not?
As you may remember from last year, I am no petrol head. You were a strong advocate when I discussed getting the Yaris Hybrid. I’ve had it for a year and really like it. Mpg wise it wasn’t fantastic over the winter when I had a lot of cold, dark early morning starts, but as the weather has improved the economy figures definitely improve along with it.
As from this summer my annual mileage should be considerably lower (it was only between 8000 and 9000 anyway). I’m sure I could happily go full electric, and may consider it at some point. But for now I’m very happy with the hybrid.
Enjoy your new car when it comes!
As you may remember from last year, I am no petrol head. You were a strong advocate when I discussed getting the Yaris Hybrid. I’ve had it for a year and really like it. Mpg wise it wasn’t fantastic over the winter when I had a lot of cold, dark early morning starts, but as the weather has improved the economy figures definitely improve along with it.
As from this summer my annual mileage should be considerably lower (it was only between 8000 and 9000 anyway). I’m sure I could happily go full electric, and may consider it at some point. But for now I’m very happy with the hybrid.
Enjoy your new car when it comes!
Steve
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Re: Would you buy a plug in electric car?
Curious how a Tesla is more computer than car, when the e-tron has three separate screen/touch controls for everything too!
Happy motoring when it arrives! Have you opted for a wall charger at home?
Happy motoring when it arrives! Have you opted for a wall charger at home?