NPD T4 project

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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by JAFO »

This isn't so much about the design project. It's more general musings about a CW business. (Or a Tribus business, come to that).I think VFM, or whatever 3LA you want to use is such a tricky one. Clearly making and selling watches, and building a substantial profitable business is not easy. Limiting yourself to a modest profit margin, or at least one far smaller than much of your competition may not help. It gives you a price advantage, but it still needs you to convert pretty well all your production into sales. I can see why many small producers try to presell their production with a Kickstarter type approach. Maybe CW could offer more watches in smaller limited batches, presold to keep prices down, maybe using standard cases and other parts but modified dials, finishes, hands and so on. Is that how the FLEs worked?

Let's also note there's a tough price hurdle around £1000, say. £1000 is a large amount for a non aficionado to spend on a watch. Well, it must be hard to make swiss watches for much under £1000. You can see why a smallish watchmaker needs to repeat proven profitable lines and designs, rather than venture into perhaps more speculative lines that fail to sell.

There have been lots of excellent observations in this thread, but pretty well all suggestions still have some in favour and some against. I am sure we are all favourably disposed to CW, and probably already have multiple CWs, but It's still not so easy to get us to keep spending.

This applies to anything pretty well. I have a decent TV. I don't (yet) need a new slimmer, curved, smarter, higher definition TV. It must be hard for TV makers to get buyers to buy TVs, when their current one is OK.

Watches are more like jewellery in that many owners will have several watches, but many of us are probably reaching limits, so it's one in, one out, and avoid too much duplication.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

JAFO wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:08 pm This isn't so much about the design project. It's more general musings about a CW business. (Or a Tribus business, come to that).
I disagree completely. Nowhere in my original post was business operations mentioned. This is strictly intended to be a brainstorming session of ideas, likes and dislikes about what people would like to see in the next evolution of the C60 Trident

JAFO wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:08 pm .......I think VFM, or whatever 3LA you want to use is such a tricky one. Clearly making and selling watches, and building a substantial profitable business is not easy. Limiting yourself to a modest profit margin, or at least one far smaller than much of your competition may not help. It gives you a price advantage, but it still needs you to convert pretty well all your production into sales. I can see why many small producers try to presell their production with a Kickstarter type approach. Maybe CW could offer more watches in smaller limited batches, presold to keep prices down, maybe using standard cases and other parts but modified dials, finishes, hands and so on. Is that how the FLEs worked?

Let's also note there's a tough price hurdle around £1000, say. £1000 is a large amount for a non aficionado to spend on a watch. Well, it must be hard to make swiss watches for much under £1000. You can see why a smallish watchmaker needs to repeat proven profitable lines and designs, rather than venture into perhaps more speculative lines that fail to sell.

There have been lots of excellent observations in this thread, but pretty well all suggestions still have some in favour and some against. I am sure we are all favourably disposed to CW, and probably already have multiple CWs, but It's still not so easy to get us to keep spending.

This applies to anything pretty well. I have a decent TV. I don't (yet) need a new slimmer, curved, smarter, higher definition TV. It must be hard for TV makers to get buyers to buy TVs, when their current one is OK.

Watches are more like jewellery in that many owners will have several watches, but many of us are probably reaching limits, so it's one in, one out, and avoid too much duplication.
You bring up some excellent points, but I do think they are mostly irrelevant in this topic. CW is looking for ideas. They will certainly decide what is doable relative to marketing and pricing.

I would suggest opening a new topic if you would like to discuss these points. They are certainly worthy of discussion.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

Dial/ hands Summary

As one would expect this was probably the area for the most suggestions.

Although not without some dissent, the return to a textured dial was heavily favored. Most seemed to prefer the return of the wave dial, or something similar as this was long associated with the Trident. The use of a fully lumed dial or a full lumed ceramic dial was also a popular suggestion.

Other suggestions were a Sunray dial or a matte finish dial or possibly a sandwich type dial.

Other dial colors as well as those in more muted tones were also recommended as part of the permanent line.

The use of the date at 6 was also heavily favored as was having a date wheel always color matched. An altimeter style was suggested as well. Several were suggesting a non-date version be offered.

If an SH21 gets used, then PR indicator is favored.

Updated markers/indices are also suggested while some want numbers at 3,6,9,12 depending on date location, while others want markers only.

A couple suggested removing Christopher Ward from the dial completely if the twin flags device is utilized at 12. We will summarize that more in the Logo/Twin Flag device summary.

The hands of the C60 MKIII have been criticized as too generic. The Trident second hand is the exception here as most would like to keep that.

Some would like to have a color coordinated second hand or color tipped trident hand.

Several would like to see a return to the hands of the prior generations of C60’s while some would like to see subtle alterations to the MKIII hands such as, remove or shorten the overhanging tails. A wider base to the hour hand was also suggested. Few have suggested keeping the current hand choice.

Other suggestions included gun metal-colored hands and indices or black hands on a white dials.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Stuart1 »

Just on the lume.
Would there be any mileage on having the hour / minute hands in contrasting colours blue / green?
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by jtc »

For the dial - I was thinking about the "breathing" small seconds they experimented with... I wonder how that sort of styling would look using the twin flags motif, maybe even playing with lume.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Squalus »

A bi-metal case could be interesting.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Lavaine »

Kip wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:52 pm Movement Summary
Improving the overall accuracy would be a plus, without moving into a COSC movement. This would suggest a Sellita SW300 or ETA 2892 type movement which are also slightly thinner.
I don't see this as the only option for improving accuracy. Two other options come to mind:
1) Using an elabore or top grade SW200/ ETA 2824 movement (cheaper than a SW300 / 2892?)
2)In-house regulation prior to casing up movements. If the Trident is going to be the hallmark model, put the best regulated movements in the Trident, with a suitably advertised accuracy, and the movements that can't meet the target accuracy can go into other models.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

^^I don 't disagree referencing accuracy. I was also thinking about a thinner movement to accommodate the thinner case requests.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by jkbarnes »

Kip wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:48 pm
JAFO wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:08 pm This isn't so much about the design project. It's more general musings about a CW business. (Or a Tribus business, come to that).
I disagree completely. Nowhere in my original post was business operations mentioned. This is strictly intended to be a brainstorming session of ideas, likes and dislikes about what people would like to see in the next evolution of the C60 Trident
I think he meant his post, not the thread. At least, that's how I interpreted it.
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NPD T4 project

Post by gaf1958 »

Re the movement, I think that two movements should be retained, but instead of quartz for the 300m version and SW200 for the 600m model, I would suggest that the entry level 300m version uses the SW200 and the 600m version uses the thinner SW300 (ETA 2882 equivalent) to maintain a degree of difference.

The advantage of using the SW300 is that it’s a thinner (and better quality) movement, which would allow the 600m model to be about the same thickness (thinness?) as the 300m model (with thicker movement nut thinner crystal and case back).

In other words, retain two levels in the basic C60 range; the 300m with SW200 and the 600m with SW300. But have ceramic bezels on both ranges please; don’t cheapen the image of the range-leading model. Further differentiation for the top line 600m models could be made with the silver/white coloured inner ring on the bezel - as used on the Elite models.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

jkbarnes wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:49 am
Kip wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:48 pm
JAFO wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:08 pm This isn't so much about the design project. It's more general musings about a CW business. (Or a Tribus business, come to that).
I disagree completely. Nowhere in my original post was business operations mentioned. This is strictly intended to be a brainstorming session of ideas, likes and dislikes about what people would like to see in the next evolution of the C60 Trident
I think he meant his post, not the thread. At least, that's how I interpreted it.
My apologies if I have misunderstood.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by albionphoto »

Kip wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:17 pm Dial/ hands Summary

As one would expect this was probably the area for the most suggestions.

Although not without some dissent, the return to a textured dial was heavily favored. Most seemed to prefer the return of the wave dial, or something similar as this was long associated with the Trident. The use of a fully lumed dial or a full lumed ceramic dial was also a popular suggestion.

Other suggestions were a Sunray dial or a matte finish dial or possibly a sandwich type dial.

Other dial colors as well as those in more muted tones were also recommended as part of the permanent line.


Other suggestions included gun metal-colored hands and indices or black hands on a white dials.
Textured dials? I dissent too. Guilloche as applied by CW on the Mk 2/2.5 Trident wasn't very pleasant. My Blue bezel/blue dial looked great at precisely one angle (when you couldn't see the guilloche) and it didn't affect the colour. Reflected light and indoor light was not that watch's style.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

Logo/Twin flag device

The overwhelming suggestion here is to use the twin flags at the 12 position. This could be applied and lumed (the top suggestion), or at least faceted to match the indices. Both would be superb. Even a laser engraved device would be better than not having the device at 12.

Certainly, some would prefer the CW logo at 12 at the very least. Having both was suggested if the CW font could be changed or made smaller under the device.

Removal of the CW wordmark was suggested if it could be moved/engraved on the caseback.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by albionphoto »

There have been a few summaries from Kip thus far. Thank you to Kip for trying to make sense of our ramblings :thumbup: :thumbup:

Has anyone discussed anti-magnetism yet? I was thinking about that this morning after I completed the CW SH21 survey which dropped into my inbox. I'd be very happy if we were able to have a watch with a 1,000 Gauss resistance to magnetic fields. No need to go for the Omega 15,000 gauss but a 1,000 Gauss would be very nice. IIRC the magnetic field around an iPhone can reach 329-ish Gauss so a 1,000 Gauss would be very useful and give a good marketing claim.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by monkeymax »

I was thinking about that when I posted previously but didn't as I didn't know what the current capabilities are. Earlier in the year I was working in an environment where this was a serious consideration, so I'd swap my C6 for a Casio. Would be nice to be able to wear an auto all the time rather than have to keep a cheap Casio watch on my desk! :thumbup:
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