NPD T4 project

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Amor Vincit Omnia
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

nbg wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:21 am Not to create a watch that is designed to appeal to folk that already have a few CW dive watches and now just want something different as an addition to a collection.
+1

Sorry to sound like a broken record, as I’ve already made this point a couple of times in the thread. Change it because it needs changing, not just because you can.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by missF »

Posting what we as individuals want to see from the mk 4 trident is a different endeavour to posting what we think CW as a business should do next. I think we should be posting what we as individuals would like to see. It’s only CW who know their full market, so what they do next is their call only.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by jkbarnes »

Interesting thread. Not sure that I’ll be buying a C60 anytime soon, so I don’t have any skin in the game.

My thoughts are that anything done to the Mk3 should be a refinement of the design, something that takes what’s already there and makes it better. I’d rather not see a wholesale revamping of the watch, but an evolution of what is already an excellent design.

Things like making shiny bits matte or adding the logo at 12 o’clock or making it thinner are in keeping with that. New color ways too. New bezel design - not so much.

As Steve and others have said, change for the sake of change is not good. Design by committee is not good.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

I think that since this is a brainstorming session. All input is welcome.

While I personally agree with both AVO and missF, I am certain that the NPD panel will review all suggestions and determine what makes sense for CW.

As I stated in my original post..,"Be subtle, be radical, be creative, it might stimulate an idea with someone else."
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by iain »

I’ve only owned tridents with the polished ceramic bezel, not the matt version. I have however owned a Bremont with a matt bezel. Can I ask those who own matt bezelled tridents how they hold up to marks?

My Bremont used to mark easily and comments on the Facebook Bremont pages suggest it’s quite a common issue. However it isn’t the bezel that scratches, it’s residue from whatever came into contact with it. However I found, as other Bremont owners have commented, that these marks wouldn’t easily come off and you had to live with it until it faded over time, by which point, other marks would have joined it meaning you never seem to have a clean bezel.

My theory is it’s the difference in finish at a microscopic level between brushed and polished. If you were to zoom in under a microscope, a brushed bezel would look like the surface of the moon compared to a much flatter polished surface. It’s therefore possible that it is these imperfections which house the debris, making it hard to rub off.

If the Trident brushed bezels hold up well then I’d vote for brushed, but if they show every single mark then I’d prefer a wipe clean polished finish every time.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Stuart1 »

I know it would not be a large volume seller but "Destro" / "LHD" version would be nice. Even if it were special order. The SW200 movement has symmetrical dial feet and with a date at the 6 position (or non date) it would not be too technically challenging.
Tudor, Archemede and Sinn have them in their catalogues so there must be some demand.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by albionphoto »

iain wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 pm I’ve only owned tridents with the polished ceramic bezel, not the matt version. I have however owned a Bremont with a matt bezel. Can I ask those who own matt bezelled tridents how they hold up to marks?

My Bremont used to mark easily and comments on the Facebook Bremont pages suggest it’s quite a common issue. However it isn’t the bezel that scratches, it’s residue from whatever came into contact with it. However I found, as other Bremont owners have commented, that these marks wouldn’t easily come off and you had to live with it until it faded over time, by which point, other marks would have joined it meaning you never seem to have a clean bezel.

My theory is it’s the difference in finish at a microscopic level between brushed and polished. If you were to zoom in under a microscope, a brushed bezel would look like the surface of the moon compared to a much flatter polished surface. It’s therefore possible that it is these imperfections which house the debris, making it hard to rub off.

If the Trident brushed bezels hold up well then I’d vote for brushed, but if they show every single mark then I’d prefer a wipe clean polished finish every time.
My Bremont has an internal bezel so I can't comment about their normal ceramic bezels.
I do, however, own an Oris Aquis with a brushed ceramic bezel. It has remained unsullied for seven years. I'm not kind to my watches as the scratches on my Speedmaster and Bremont will attest. I don't think a brushed ceramic bezel is any more likely to show scratches than a shiny one.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by thomcat00 »

Overall I’m quite happy with the current C60 MkIII. I have two C60 GMTs (blue/blue, and black/black - both 38mm) and I’m eyeing the new Anthropocene even as I also have the C65 Anthropocene. :p A bit frivolous to some, I’m sure. And, yes, I do seem to like the GMT function.

The name at 9 has not bothered me in the slightest. Moving the twin flags logo to 12 - and lumed - makes sense. The name could fit below the logo. Date at 3 or 6 is fine; dial symmetry seems to dictate that if the logo is at 12, the date ought to be opposite at 6, which is why the name at 9 and the date at 3 worked for me.

Sapphire dials appeal as a distinction from many other divers. Also choosing a matte finished ceramic dial AND bezel as an alternate appeals. The bezel proportion is good currently; thinner encroaches on the C65’s look.

I’d keep the flat plane crystal and a closed case back. It seems that exhibition backs add thickness and the Trident could stand to be thinner.

What can be done to increase the power reserve? I realize the Sellita is the limiting factor. Would adopting the 330 across the line, even skipping the GMT specific function, be possible (or reasonable)?

I’m sure I’ll revisit this topic. Glad that NPD is soliciting input.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by monkeymax »

Sorry to refer to a post from over a week ago, but I've been away from the forum for a long while and am slowly catching up!

Saw the below and thought... I'm sure I've seen that before...?
timor54 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:11 pm
StrappedUp wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:24 pm
nbg wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:46 pm As do the style of rubber straps that you cut to suit wrist size.
Yeh, and if I'm thinking correctly, it could be a strap that comes with multiple 'trimming' holes either side and be fitted to the bracelets ratcheting clasp. CW appear to like re-using parts where possible, so one clasp for all would suit.

I think that would work, wouldn't it? :?
This is a close up of the Oris Aquis rubber strap slider mechanism (excuse the DNA, it's been worn a lot).

Image

The 'buckle' end of the strap is held into the deployant slider via two spring bars (red arrows). That end of the strap is also marked in segments that can be cut to length to position the clasp as required. Cutting off a segment is analogous to removing approximately a half link from a bracelet. This system works very well and is probably the most comfortable strap I've got on any watch.

The Trident bracelet has a similar slider end piece that connects the divers extension ratchet to the bracelet. This is attached via a spring bar so in principal a new slider to attach to the end of a rubber strap could be designed so that the existing deployant could be reused for a rubber strap.

However, the existing deployant is pretty slim which might make it impractical as the rubber strap would have to be no thicker than the existing bracelet; and this doesn't take into account what to do with the other end of the rubber strap (the end with buckle holes in it) which also has to attach to the deployant with the tail lying under it when closed!

All-in-all a daunting design task and probably best avoided by designing as new deployant!
Turns out I had.
DSC_0104-Small.JPG
DSC_0105-Small.JPG
(sorry for the rubbish phone photos)

My C6 Kingfisher from 2010 (I think? I've had it a while!) had an original strap that had this ability to trim the rubber at the deployant. Unfortunately the rubber of the strap itself had problems and when I sent the watch to CW to have the battery changed the strap snapped - apparently a common problem with these, so I've not used the strap in a long time! Surprised I still have it in the box!

All of which is a long way to say... CW already know how to do this! ;)

This strap also had a fitted end at the lugs shaped to match the watch beautifully.

As for my thoughts on the Mk4, I'm not sure how relevant they are as I've not held a Mk3. I owned a second hand quartz Mk2 for a short time but it was a catch and release for various reasons (mostly because at the time I didn't appreciate the hand shape that much!). The Mk3 C60 Elite is pretty much an ideal watch for me as is. I think the only thing that doesn't make it a 100% perfect watch is that the titanium apparently scratches really easily on reading about the watch. Granted, I'd like to get my hands on one to try myself. But I'm surprised CW haven't used any treatment on the Ti or a slight tweak to the metallurgy to slow down the scratches. I have a Citizen from the early 2000s that doesn't scratch easily and a Kickstarter watch that was given extra hardness treatment. I won't say it's easy to do, but would be nice to see.

While on the Mk4... The Chronograph doesn't seem to get much love. Given how much of a beast it is in standard form, it seems ripe for a titanium case!
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by DEV.Woulf »

missF wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:50 am Posting what we as individuals want to see from the mk 4 trident is a different endeavour to posting what we think CW as a business should do next.
Yes. I know it's fun to play with what ifs on the idea of a next version, but it cannot be too racially different from what made the Mk 3 such a great seller. Another thing to add with the idea of a tide bezel or matt bezel is that the Trident is CW's main diver of the lineup. It's made and sold to complete with the Oris Aquis, Longines Hydroconquest, Monta Oceanking, Ginault Ocean-Rover, etc. All of the the big sellers in those lines have shiny ceramic bezels. It's what the dive communty likes, so to just turn the Mk 4 into something away from that would not be a good idea. Now if some colors or versions have those bezels as an alternative than that's great! Just like a titanium model being a side option, variety is good for some people and will some well overall. :clap:

I'm thinking the Mk 4 will just be a refinement of the Mk 3. New colors (hopefully a brighter blue! :wave:), improved light-catcher case/bracelet, 12 logo with Twin Flags (which will finally be the last logo for a very long time... thinking long-term), better bezel tolerances, and just a slight overhaul across the board. Not overthinking it here. :)
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Kip »

Movement Summary

Quite a variety of comments around the movement with the only consensus seemingly to have a longer power reserve.

While it goes against the theme of a thinner overall design, the use of an in house movement is also suggested.

Improving the overall accuracy would be a plus, without moving into a COSC movement. This would suggest a Sellita SW300 or ETA 2892 type movement which are also slightly thinner.

If an exhibition case back is used it is suggested that a decorated movement/rotor be utilized. The suggestion of a Trident shaped rotor was also endorsed. Not sure this is practical from an engineering perspective, but a twin flags design with a trident imprint on the rotor might work.

A few suggested the use of a hand wound movement.

There were a couple who endorsed using a COSC movement as standard.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by MiniMpi »

I've been very busy of late minding my Dad on my time off etc so I wasn't able to put forward my thoughts on the T4.

A lot of the suggestions said so far are similar to what I was thinking but here are my thoughts :

Firstly, I think they really got the MK3 right from day one, It's a stunning watch which I had two versions of so far, the Pro and recently the GMT.
It really is a superb watch so I don't think huge changes are really needed, it sells extremely well. Huge credit to CW for getting so much right on this watch by the way :clap:
My thoughts below are based on the MK4 Pro, lots of other things like highly decorated movements with display casebacks, handwind movements etc would be great on different versions or LE versions of the MK4.

1: I would stick to offering 40mm & 42mm versions. (Personally I think the 42mm is just spot on)

2: I think they should forget the display caseback idea and return to a quality solid caseback with a very stylized Trident symbol.

3: COSC movements as standard definitely, it shows it's a quality product straight away and CW have been using COSC movements in lots of it's other watches of late.

4: I would keep the depth rating at 600m, again it is way above even Rolex in this regard and again is a great sign of a quality product.
It could be dropped to 300m but I feel it would make it look like a much cheaper watch.

5: Following on from the depth rating, having the watch thinner even by a small amount would be a good thing possibly, at 13.4mm for the current MK3 42mm version isn't bad but maybe about 12.5mm or so would be very good.

6: Case design currently on the MK3 is excellent in my opinion but maybe take the curves a bit more which will also potentially help with reducing the height of the watch.

7: Regarding what movement to use, bar having it COSC, the Sellita SW200-1 has served them very well.
However again to push CW forward of the norm, how about using a power reserve complication ?
The SW270-1 for example ?
Again just a "What if" idea but certainly would be very different and a very handy complication to have also.
I'd be happy with keeping the SW200-1 but as a COSC grade movement.

8: Bezel maybe following on from the C60 #tide perhaps ? It slims down the look of the watch a lot and again takes it into a different look from the norm of diver watches out there.

9: The dial : I thought I liked the glossy dial of the MK3 however having recently acquired the Prototype MK3 GMT, I feel they should have gone for the matt dark grey dial like on the prototype. It changes the watch completely, the glossy dial is actually quite hard to read properly with the constant reflections going on. The matt grey dial is so so clear and crisp and transforms the watch.
So I would put forward to go with that matt dark grey dial for the MK4.

10: One other thing I would love to see CW bring back and have with the MK4 is the integrated/flush rubber strap like the C6 Kingfisher.
Similar to the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore Diver, Omega 300m etc. This is a great look and very comfortable on the wrist the way it is curved and wraps around your wrist. Maybe go with the Stainless Steel endlinks on them for durability.

So they are my thoughts and suggestions for the T4 ;)
I hope everyone enjoys the read.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Stuart1 »

With some of the changes there will be a resultant cost rise. Mike France said in one his interviews that COSC would add an extra £150 to retail price. Would a change to SW300 add extra?
May be another question should be about price?
Currently at £740 the C60 is great value. If the price rose to £1100 would people start to look elsewhere? Also at £740 it would not too much of additional stretch to have both colour ways. Especially, if you can't make up your mind like me!
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Amor Vincit Omnia »

^^^ Negotiating the somewhat murky waters of midpriced watches can be quite tricky. Catering to those who want the lowest price they can get may alienate those who want the best possible quality, and vice versa.

One of CW‘s long-standing propositions is Value for Money. I don’t know why, but that expression always makes me think of postwar austerity, or buying cheap own-brand products in a supermarket. The abbreviation sounds more like a radio station to me.

And then of course we have Bang for Buck, which is gaining ground on this side of the ocean nowadays. Sounds like a paddock full of female deer to me.

I prefer RQP (Rapport Qualité-Prix) which is the no-nonsense French equivalent. Doesn’t shy away from the obvious fact that there is and always has been a relationship between quality and price.

I suppose the question is really: where does the company want to position itself going forward? I suppose the only way to please everyone (which they won’t do anyway) is to offer different grades within the same product. Could that then lead to a situation where they are spreading themselves too thinly?

OK, prices are on the rise, what’s new? But I’m currently reviewing my C63 GMT, which I have had for a few days. I think this new range has superb RQP. I think it would be difficult to find another such well made and well spec’d watch for under £800.
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Re: NPD T4 project

Post by Coanda »

One of my favorite C60 designs was the GMT 600 with red bezel. I first read about it on Worn and Wound. Here is what I would propose for the new model, which is similar to other proposals mentioned so far:

- Slimmer case design. I would be fine with 300M depth rating.
- Wave dial. I always found this design attractive on a dive watch and CW executed it well.
- Lumed bezel. The watch I referenced above did not have a lumed bezel, but I have liked this addition on the new CW models.
- Applied hour markers with lume.
- Framed date window.
- Power reserve.
- Hour/minute handset. I personally liked the more unique droplet hour handset from the previous models.
- Manual wind. My understanding is manual wind is thinner, but is that offset by adding a power reserve?
- Sizes. 39/40mm and 41/42mm. I personally prefer the larger size, but it would be nice to have a smaller options available.
- Exhibition caseback.
- Other thoughts. For a standard model, I think a movement should be chosen that will preserve a budget price point. There can be future options / LE models with COSC, GMT, 600M depth rating, etc (I personally would like to see a GMT version).

Thank you for this wonderful opportunity to participate in the creative design of the new Trident!
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