New models...

Discuss Christopher Ward watches
JasperCat
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Re: New models...

Post by JasperCat »

Amor Vincit Omnia wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:52 pm
JasperCat wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:44 pm Didn't Johannes Jahnke (of SH21 and other calibres) fame go to be Technical Director at Sellita ?

If so, I would imagine that he wouldn't be happy to let an issue like this "spinning rotor" (perceived or not) go unresolved for long :thumbup:
Any automatic can develop this problem. I don't understand it but I believe that is the case. You hear about Sellita more on this form because that's the one CW uses. I have a vintage Eterna that does it.
I agree that it seems more prevalent due to being the movement CW uses, and it surely can't be a massive issue otherwise something would have been done by now :thumbup:
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Re: New models...

Post by josbrownlie »

laughingboy wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:09 pm
Dickchins wrote:Having already got the blue in my stable, Ive just ordered the black. I think it looks quite striking.
Coupled with a £100 voucher it was a no brainer for me as I love my sapphire!

I cant remember the lucky lucky ****** that picked up the orange prototype, but if he reads this and EVER wants or needs to sell, there will be cash waiting in sunny Bolton...!!!

(Yes im aware theres more chance of having a snowball fight in the desert with Lord Lucan but one can but dream) Image
Hi, a few more pics of the Image Opaque Prototype for your perusal.
All the best!

Steve20210122_135153.jpg20210122_122829.jpg20210122_134147.jpg20210113_132915.jpg20210124_153934.jpg20210124_153849.jpg20210124_153837.jpg

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Love that. Very omega PO like outer bezel orange quadrant
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Re: New models...

Post by rkovars »

It is my understanding that the most common culprit is the reversing wheels being improperly lubricated either with too much oil or the wrong type of oil. These wheels are supposed to isolate the rotor when hand winding. When you hand wind you tension the main spring directly. When the wheels get gummed up it turns everything. I have heard but don't have any facts that it can also cause issues with the rotor winding as there is now more friction in the system and the rotor might not be able to overcome the friction and wind the watch to full. Sounds reasonable but may or may not be true. There are a few different ways the auto wind system has been engineered and they don't all have reversing wheels. It is my understanding that all movements that have bidirectional winding systems do have them but this might be just a generalization.
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Re: New models...

Post by JasperCat »

rkovars wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:20 pm It is my understanding that the most common culprit is the reversing wheels being improperly lubricated either with too much oil or the wrong type of oil. These wheels are supposed to isolate the rotor when hand winding. When you hand wind you tension the main spring directly. When the wheels get gummed up it turns everything. I have heard but don't have any facts that it can also cause issues with the rotor winding as there is now more friction in the system and the rotor might not be able to overcome the friction and wind the watch to full. Sounds reasonable but may or may not be true. There are a few different ways the auto wind system has been engineered and they don't all have reversing wheels. It is my understanding that all movements that have bidirectional winding systems do have them but this might be just a generalization.
Thanks for the (potential) explanation, does make sense :thumbup:
C1 - Bel Canto, Grand Malvern 5 Day
C5 - FLE
C60 - Concept
C65 - Cranwell, Super Compressor
C9 - 5 Day Small Seconds
Omega - Aqua Terra, SMP Nekton
Breitling - SuperOcean
Rolex - Air King
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nbg
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Re: New models...

Post by nbg »

JasperCat wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:32 pm
rkovars wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:20 pm It is my understanding that the most common culprit is the reversing wheels being improperly lubricated either with too much oil or the wrong type of oil. These wheels are supposed to isolate the rotor when hand winding. When you hand wind you tension the main spring directly. When the wheels get gummed up it turns everything. I have heard but don't have any facts that it can also cause issues with the rotor winding as there is now more friction in the system and the rotor might not be able to overcome the friction and wind the watch to full. Sounds reasonable but may or may not be true. There are a few different ways the auto wind system has been engineered and they don't all have reversing wheels. It is my understanding that all movements that have bidirectional winding systems do have them but this might be just a generalization.
Thanks for the (potential) explanation, does make sense :thumbup:
A bit more detail in this post about spinning rotor syndrome.
nbg wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:57 pm I had spinning rotor syndrome on a C65 Dartmouth that I purchased NN in January. It became evident a few days after I received the watch, at the point I let the watch power down and then tried to reset and a few winds to get it going (because it was running and correctly set when I received it, I didn’t notice until the reset).

The movement is a Sellita SW200-1 and I wrote about it here. The watch was fixed and returned to me by CW in a timescale of 3 weeks.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53534

Whilst I was aware of anecdotal evidence of potential issues, across many brands, it was not something I had particularly looked into, until I had the problem with mine. I was aware of comments on various forums that the issue in simple terms was a problem with the reverser wheels (sticking?), but didn’t know if that was just about suboptimal lubrication, or other aspects. Easy enough to envisage it happening if there was virtually no effective lubrication on a watch not serviced for many years.

During my initial email exchange with CW reference was made to Sellita’s tolerance of 30 degrees of tilt. However I must stress that CW were not indicating that if it passed the 30 degree test they would say it was in spec. It was made clear from the outset that the watch would be repaired to run as both CW and I would expect.

This set me off on trying to find something that explained the 30 degree tilt test, albeit I had already worked out what I thought it meant.

Mr Google then threw up a useful thread, where from reading the responses it is evident that a couple of those who responded are likely to be watchmakers. Gave them somewhat of a head start on me, given that my watch expertise is limited to wearing them and managing to change a bracelet/strap! :)

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/help-r ... 425-2.html
.
06C09E5F-B75D-42D9-B024-B5BFC746E1F6.png
The situation with mine was that even if held at 0 degrees, I.e. in the position with least gravitational pull on the rotor, it was still not possible to do anything other than spin the rotor when attempting to wind. As I moved towards 30 degrees it became more difficult to be able to impart any wind and at 90 degrees wouldn’t wind at all.

Now that the watch is fixed there is no difference whatsoever in the feel of manual wind, regardless of the angle of tilt at which the watch is held.

Further thoughts from me include - are the movements provided to a brand by the likes of Sellita or ETA already lubricated and “good to go”, or is this something that the brands would do themselves? Possibly dependent on retail price point of the watch and whether the brand performs any modifications? Do ETA adopt a similar “tilt test”?

We probably have a couple of watchmakers as members on the forum and it would be interesting to get their perspective, even if only to tell me that what I have put above is incorrect, or to be able to add further detail.

By way of further test I picked four Tridents from my watch box (2 Mk1 and 2 Mk2, purchased between December 2013 and July 2017). Couldn’t get the rotor to spin on any of them, even when held horizontal at 0 degrees. Not much help though, as I don’t know whether they have ETA or Sellita movements. :)

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Re: New models...

Post by rkovars »

Thanks for that. Always good to have official documentation. :thumbup:
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Re: New models...

Post by ajax87 »

Dickchins wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:42 pm Having already got the blue in my stable, Ive just ordered the black. I think it looks quite striking.
Coupled with a £100 voucher it was a no brainer for me as I love my sapphire!

I cant remember the lucky lucky ****** that picked up the orange prototype, but if he reads this and EVER wants or needs to sell, there will be cash waiting in sunny Bolton...!!!

(Yes im aware theres more chance of having a snowball fight in the desert with Lord Lucan but one can but dream) :lol:
Well apparently multiple orange sapphire prototypes were sold with varying degrees of opacity? This one just popped up from someone else on one of the CW FB groups. Photo not mine, copied from FB.

Interesting that this is a milky hue unlike the red and blue and black models.


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Re: New models...

Post by Dickchins »

Very different indeed!

Many thanks for the info. I may be slightly obsessed with these I'll admit. From the size, case, spec, and overall look, I actually think this is the most complete CW watch. Its not "the best" but I do think in whatever colour, its just sooooo well designed and put together.

Damn.... do I really need to set up a fb account to keep up...?!
Itll break my heart!!!!
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Re: New models...

Post by J0EMI »

A novice question here, the C60 Sapphire dial is a really interesting design being able to see the movement behind, but compared to the live movement you are able to see on the exhibition caseback, would it not be possible to make these moving parts visible on the front dial instead? Since the movement from the front is almost static in comparison.
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Re: New models...

Post by StrappedUp »

^^^ You could be on to something there.

An industrial take on a skeleton movement may make for an interesting Sapphire LE.
Something like the Oris Artix skeleton, but covered by the Sapphire dial to add a bit of subtlety to the overall look.
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Re: New models...

Post by Noush »

Sapphire Black gets a thumbs up from me and I do like the red detailing. I seem to remember starting a thread "campaigning" for a grey one :) and well, close enough....
Now if they'd given it a 12 hour bezel it would already be ordered. As it is, just might anyway.
Especially like this on the "ocean material" strap. Good job CW.
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